Richard LeMay

The Facts You Need To Know About Vasoline, A&d, Ect.

86 posts in this topic

At any time in the use of tattooing, vasoline, and A&D should NOT be used. These are oil based products. The tattoo pigment is mainly a water carrier solution (water based). Water and oil don't mix

The effects or oil based during a tattoo.

- Gloves made of laytex will be broken down after three minutes when contacted with oil. This means that they are not a diesase barrier, just keep pigment off your skin. This is why you cant use oil lubricants with condoms.

- Nitrile and viynal gloves are broken down afer 30 minutes.

- Tattooing pigment is water based, the contact with the oil will cause the pigment to degrade even under the skin after appliation.

- Using during a tattoo shoves just as much under the skin as pigment. This leaves less room for your pigment.

- Using during a tattoo clogs the needle making tattooing more diffcult. This makes it harder to tattoo without over working the skin.

Using oil based when healing a tattoo.

- This is an oxygen barrier, this means your new wound cannot breath, thus cannot heal.

- The oil pulls out the pigment, this is why you have tattoos on your sheets. Ever see ink on a paper towel two and three days after the tattoo has been done? What about pigment running down your skin? this is not suppose to happen when tattooing. This is the pigment comming out.

-Tattoos heal much slower. Average healing time with oil based is 15 days. Without oil based the average gealing time is about seven.

- because the skin cannot breath is nature reaction is to hurt. you bodys pain censors are to let you know something is wrong. Without oil based the pain is reduced by half. And anyone that says pain is just part of a tattoo, is a moron. Why cause mroe damage for pride when you can have a tattoo heal safer, less painful, and brighter all in one?

There are many other reasons not to use these products. For advise on aftercare i have posted a section titled "Medically sound aftercare".

Many of you have asked about ink puddles and what to use during a tattoo, use nothing at all. The neddle does not get clogged and you will find that you have to work half as hard to get a nice bright tattoo. To avoid ink puddles simple run off the tip of the needle, and after dipping then gently touch the tip of the needle to a paper towel. This will remove just enough to avoid ink puddles and still allow plenty to tattoo with. As far as using these products to "keep" your pattern, you don't need it. Simply work from the bottom, to the top and wipe away from the tattoo and you will be fine. I have stopped using these products for a few years now and my work improves daily becasue of it. To top it off, i only have to do about 2 or 3 touch-ups per year. With the excetion of the last week where it did three in the week, must be do to the cold weather and poeple waring layed clothing.

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To clarify, you are advocating using no lubricant during the process of a tattoo?

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the pigment acts as a lubricant it's self. For use of blood linning i suggest water or dilluted glyceran.

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No A&D aftercare? That's what my artist gives me... or do you mean no A&D during tattooing process? (which I don't do)

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I actually just posted a reply to another thread on the same toppic. Ill do the same here:

Not to say there isnt pros or cons to using or not using vasaline, but I think artists need to do what works for them. There are many rediculously successful artists that use vasaline. Huck Spaulding uses it in his vids, and hes doing ok for himself. My tattoo artist is freakin awesome, and he is known for his bright colors and longevity of quality, fast healing time, and he uses vasaline. There are other artists who are amazing as well, and never use vasaline. I think people tend to stick with how they are taught, and when they are taught by a professional, its hard to read in a forum that its wrong and just buy into it.

That being said, I do use vasaline, and have still learned from reading the "cons" about vasaline. Tradition doesnt always mean absolute perfection. I plan on keeping an open mind and will educate myself to the best of my ability and decide what works for me by balancing that education with personal experience.

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im using maddhatters healing technique at the moment on 2 tattoo`s, and i have no scabbing (3rd day) the new work is painless unless knocked, ive had no ink on my sheets, no ink seepage when cleaning.i also didnt use vasaline when doing the work .if you look back on my posts, i never use to put it on the actual tattoo anyway,just around it,but did use to put a light film on afterwards (not no more).so i am fully confident that maddhatter is on to something here, after less than 3 days, i fell i could do more work on the piece im working on ,on myself. looks like it will be healed within a week as promised.i`m impressed!!! cheers maddhatter...

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This is not a matter of what works for the artist. This is not a matter of art, like what color something should be. The human body only heals one way, the human body is made up mostly of water.

These are facts not opinions

A&D pulls ink

A&D degrades gloves removing much need saftey for you and your client

A&D will not allow the tattoo to heal properly

A&D is only still used cause no one takes the time to learn, they only do what they were told but what we have been told was information from the 40's (spaulding, Sailor jerry, Superior, micky sharpz, ect.)

pigments are water based, A&D is oil, they don't mix

A&D was made for diaper rash! why would you put this on an open wound?

ON THE TUBE it says do not use on open wounds!

like i said, this is not a matter of opinion, i don't care how loyal some of you are to A&D,Vasoline, Bacitracion, Triple antbiotic ointment, tattoo goo, ink fixx, or any other oil based products. The FACT is that by stopping use, your tattooing will be brighter, your tattooing will heal faster and less painfully. These are medical facts.

Edited by MaddHatter
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wether its the rite way or not,i tried it and it worked just fine.i used no vaseline or a&d.i washed it with antibacterial for the first couple days and put unscented lotion on it.it peeled like a sunburn one time and was healed in a week.im convinced that it works so from now on my aftercare form includes that advise.

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This is not a matter of what works for the artist. This is not a matter of art, like what color something should be. The human body only heals one way, the human body is made up mostly of water.

These are facts not opinions

A&D pulls ink

A&D degrades gloves removing much need saftey for you and your client

A&D will not allow the tattoo to heal properly

A&D is only still used cause no one takes the time to learn, they only do what they were told but what we have been told was information from the 40's (spaulding, Sailor jerry, Superior, micky sharpz, ect.)

pigments are water based, A&D is oil, they don't mix

A&D was made for diaper rash! why would you put this on an open wound?

ON THE TUBE it says do not use on open wounds!

like i said, this is not a matter of opinion, i don't care how loyal some of you are to A&D,Vasoline, Bacitracion, Triple antbiotic ointment, tattoo goo, ink fixx, or any other oil based products. The FACT is that by stopping use, your tattooing will be brighter, your tattooing will heal faster and less painfully. These are medical facts.

after researching this a bit and talking about it at length with my boss (a tattoo artist of 30 yrs)

it appears the madhatter is right , everything we pulled up on this subject all led us back

to what madhatter is saying , even my boss , admitted he was wrong and madhatter was on to something

something to think about people...

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Ive never used A&D. My artist (who is freakin amazing) does use vasaline and I use Bacitracin till it starts peeling, then lotion. Ive never scabbed once, Im always peeling within 3 days, and pretty much heeled in a week. My brother has 10 year old work from this artist, and his lines still look awesome and color still amazing.

So although Im not saying there isnt some truth to some of this, Ive seen the techniques you speak against done successfully AND stand the test of time.

So, no matter how passionate we get about this or that, the bottom line is, there are certain techniques that are done simply because they work, and have been determined to work over many many years.

As for A&D, I cant say one way or the other cuz I havent used it.

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the point is that use of ANY oil baesd product is bad. this includes A&D, vasoline, neosporine, bacitracin, tattoo goo, ink fixx, and anything else that can leave you skin shinny. You can do as you wish, i'm not saying do what i do, i'm saying that medically this is fact, and i personally am not happy enough with "working fine".

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Is there a specific name brand you'd recommend for aftercare? Thanks for the advice!

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I really like to lube up the glove :lol: for smooth sliding? what would you recommend i put on my pinky ? lotion? or just a steadier,stronger hand:)

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I've been using the A&D method for years and have never had my gloves latex or nitrile degrade at all. I do agree with you on not using it for healing though or wrapping a tattoo with plastic wrap. I also don't glob huge amounts of petroleum on there then it's hard to get a good stretch. I use enough for the skin to be moist not a gobs and gobs of the stuff it's really not sitting on my hands at all.

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My guess is that any possible degredation to the glove wouldnt be visible in that short of time, but even not being visible, I could see how certain substances could break down latex just enough to possibly compramise the barrier needed for complete protection. That being said, I have to plead ignorance on that piece of it...cuz...well....I just dont know! :)

I definitelly appreciate the contribution MaddHatter and will take it all into consideration. Thx!

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I did the condum test with vaseline and it's pretty much instant. I change my gloves alot I pobably go through a half box or more on big pieces.

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I did the condum test with vaseline and it's pretty much instant. I change my gloves alot I pobably go through a half box or more on big pieces.

I dont even want to know the details on how you performed that test ...hehehe

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I recommend nothing during the corse of a tattoo for lubing up your glove. Lotion will just clog up a new tattoo that you are doing. Personally i don't see the advantage of lubing a glove anyway. You can't strech the skin comfortably unless you dig your hand into a client, which it very uncomfortable for them.

An no, you wouldn't see such a small change in your gloves. By degrade i don't mean they fall apart. we are talking about an area just small enough for viral infection. You can't see hepititis in blood with your bear eye either.

Mark- i understand that this is a method we have all used for years, but the facts donot change. The oil based products don't have to be globbed. I mean the smallest amount on your glove, if it sits or if you wipe it off with a paper towel will still effect the degrading of your gloves. But by using oil based during a tattoo you still push it under the skin leaving less room for pigment. basically scince i stopped using oil based i have cut my touchups down to very, very few per year and wanted to share for this reason. I am happy that you agree with the healing method though. I'm not trying to push my way. I'm just trying to help all of us learn from eachother by letting you in on the facts i have found. and i'm not really sure i want to know how you tested the condom method either......lol

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If I used Neosporin on my new tat three times already but in very small layers, did I damage my tattoo? I'm done using it for sure after all the bad shit I heard about it. I'm just worried about if I fucked it up already..

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To be honest it wont matter if you have damaged it or not, you can't change the past. Just stop using oil based products.

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I recommend nothing during the corse of a tattoo for lubing up your glove. Lotion will just clog up a new tattoo that you are doing. Personally i don't see the advantage of lubing a glove anyway. You can't strech the skin comfortably unless you dig your hand into a client, which it very uncomfortable for them.

An no, you wouldn't see such a small change in your gloves. By degrade i don't mean they fall apart. we are talking about an area just small enough for viral infection. You can't see hepititis in blood with your bear eye either.

Mark- i understand that this is a method we have all used for years, but the facts donot change. The oil based products don't have to be globbed. I mean the smallest amount on your glove, if it sits or if you wipe it off with a paper towel will still effect the degrading of your gloves. But by using oil based during a tattoo you still push it under the skin leaving less room for pigment. basically scince i stopped using oil based i have cut my touchups down to very, very few per year and wanted to share for this reason. I am happy that you agree with the healing method though. I'm not trying to push my way. I'm just trying to help all of us learn from eachother by letting you in on the facts i have found. and i'm not really sure i want to know how you tested the condom method either......lol

I haven't seen anything you posted hear as wrong I just know my way works and I haven't had any problems and I only have to do touch ups when people don't take care of their work . like when they pick at it. I really don't get spotty color either. My only problesm have been with people who are alchoholics and who take pain medication. I have had a client that was hyper sensitive and she couldn't use petrleum, soap or latex and it was the biggest bitch in the world to try and tattoo.

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boy, i know what you mean there, god i hate it when people nage incesently. unfourunatly it our job to handle every situation with the upmost coutresy and respect to the clinet............untill they leave then we post what a bitch they were to all of our friends and internet buddies in retrubution, or hide a penis in there tattoo...................kidding.

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MaddHatter - I too agree with the logic in some of this, but struggle with changing practices that Ive seen alot of amazing artists use, and I have used myself since day one. That being said, I just dont know, medically, scientifially, which camp I shoud sit in. Maybe those of us who want to contribute to the threat can start doing a bit of research and post the refferences here. What do you think?

I think its understandable for artists to have a hard time changing what theyve been doing sucessfully for so many years. However, Im also ALL for change, if it means becoming a better artist and gaining knowledge. So maybe we can all find some medical and/or scientific refferences online and post them? I dont mean other artists in other forums who agree or disagree with a particular stance, I mean solid factual refferences from trustworthy sources. Ideally ones that dont even reffer to tattooing specifically, but wound care in general. Although I guess the aspect of color packing and the use of vasaline would need to be addressed when it comes to tattoos.

But I say we dig in, and provide this forum and its members some support for all this. What are your thoughts?

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Yes I agree 100%. I am very intersed to see all sides of the matter.

Petroleum jelly, vaseline, petrolatum or soft paraffin [2] is a semi-solid mixture of hydrocarbons (with carbon numbers mainly higher than 25),[3] originally promoted as a topical ointment for its healing properties. Its folkloric medicinal value as a "cure-all" has since been limited by better scientific understanding of appropriate and inappropriate uses (see Uses below) However, it is recognized by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) as an approved Over-The-Counter (OTC) skin protectant and remains widely used in cosmetic skin care. It is commonly referred to as Vaseline as a genericized trademark.

It is insoluble in water. It is soluble in chloroform, benzene, carbon disulfide and oil of turpentine

There is a common misconception (resulting from the similar feel they produce when applied to human skin) that petroleum jelly and glycerol (glycerine) are physically similar. While petroleum is a non-polar hydrocarbon hydrophobic (water-repelling) and insoluble in water, glycerol (not a hydrocarbon but an alcohol) is the opposite: it is so strongly hydrophilic (water-attracting) that by continuous absorption of moisture from the air, it produces the feeling of wetness on the skin, similar to the greasiness produced by petroleum jelly. The feeling is similar, but petroleum jelly repels water, and glycerine attracts it.

Chesebrough originally promoted Vaseline primarily as an ointment for scrapes, burns, and cuts, but physicians have shown that Vaseline has no medicinal effect or any effect on the blistering process, nor is it absorbed by the skin. Vaseline’s effectiveness in accelerating wound healing stems from its sealing effect on cuts and burns, which inhibits germs from getting into the wound and keeps the injured area supple by preventing the skin's moisture from evaporating. "Vaseline First Aid Petroleum Jelly" brand, (which contained phenol to give the jelly additional anti-bacterial effect), has been discontinued.

It should not be used on fresh burns of any kind, including sunburn. Petrolatum traps heat inside, worsening burns. After heat has dissipated, however, it can serve as a dressing for minor burns to soothe later pain.[1]

if small particles of petrolatum are inhaled from the nose, they may deposit in the lungs and lead to a condition called lipid pneumonia.

Since petroleum is a kind of oil, it interferes with the structure of latex. Using petroleum jelly with latex condoms weakens the material increasing the chance of rupture, and thereby the chance of conceiving or spreading sexually transmitted infections

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum_jelly

Pro’s:

approved Over-The-Counter (OTC) skin protectant,

Con’s:

approved Over-The-Counter (OTC) skin protectant (seals wound from air that needed to heal), It is insoluble in water.( the body is about 83% water), petroleum is a non-polar hydrocarbon hydrophobic (water-repelling), physicians have shown that Vaseline has no medicinal effect (toward healing), sealing effect on cuts and burns, which inhibits germs from getting into the wound (also keeps air out that neede for production of new cells), It should not be used on fresh burns of any kind, including sunburn, may cause lipid pneumonia., interferes with the structure of latex

A&D oinment

Active in grediants include Petrolatium (see above) and Lanolin

Lanolin, also called Adeps Lanae, wool wax, wool fat, anhydrous wool fat or wool grease, a greasy yellow substance from wool-bearing animals, acts as a skin ointment, water-proofing wax, and raw material (such as in shoe polish). Chemically akin to wax, lanolin is secreted by the sebaceous glands of wool-bearing animals, such as sheep. These glands are associated with hair follicles. Lanolin's ability to act as a waterproofing wax aids sheep in shedding water from their coats. Certain breeds of sheep produce large amounts of lanolin, and the extraction can be performed by squeezing the wool between rollers. Most or all the lanolin is removed from wool when it is processed into textiles, such as yarn.

water-repellent properties

lanolin can also be used to treat chapped lips, diaper rash,

can result in an allergic reaction

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanolin

The dangers of lanolin poisoning http://0-medlineplus.nlm.nih.gov.catalog.l...icle/002663.htm

Lanolin tends to be contaminated with pesticides due to frequent sheep dipping to control parasites & diseases. Diazanon, a neurotoxic organophosphate pesticide, was found in 21 of the 25 samples analysed where a total of 16 pesticides were found. It is advised to not be used by breast feeding mothers due to the high concentrations of chemical residues found

http://www.earthtobody.ca/dangers.cfm

Pro’s:

Lanolin can also be used to treat chapped lips, diaper rash

Con’s:

contaminated with pesticides, dangers of lanolin poisoning, allergic reaction , water-repellent properties, raw material (such as in shoe polish)

The effects of Petrolium on latex gloves

Gloves are the first line of defense against infection and contamination, and are frequently being misused. Latex gloves must be changed often, as they begin to degrade very quickly. Glove manufacturers advise changing latex exam gloves every 15-30 minutes, even under the best conditions. Extended contact with blood can cause the latex to "balloon", as it retains liquid. (Gross!) When coupled with an oil-based product (like hand lotion inside the glove, or Vaseline, Bacitracin or A&D ointment), the barrier between client and practitioner is severely compromised, and can degrade within minutes. Oil-based products are used both during and after the tattoo process, which means prolonged exposure to the glove latex. The product is spread with the fingertips and remains on the client's skin, often coming in contact with other parts of the hand during movement. Any time that a latex glove comes in contact with petroleum, it must be changed to ensure protection for both client and practitioner. (2) Since contact is basically unavoidable and essential to the process, latex gloves are impractical.

A barrier between clients and artists is essential. It protects both parties from blood borne pathogens as well as bacteria that lives on top of the skin. The Center for Disease Control (US) considers anything that "penetrates soft tissue, contacts bone, enters into or contacts the bloodstream or other normally sterile tissue" a "critical risk" for infection control." (7) Obviously this makes client/practitioner barriers an issue of huge importance for the body modification industry. Without a proper barrier, you might as well work bare-handed. Not to sound sensationalistic, but the combination of petroleum based product, bodily fluids, and prolonged exposure can leave both parties playing Russian Roulette with their health.

vinyl gloves must be changed every 15 minutes. Vinyl gloves are rigid and relatively non-elastic, meaning that hand movement causes stress which causes them to rip. As they tear easily and have a high failure rate (up to 60 %!) in glove testing. (5) This means that vinyl gloves are completely inappropriate for the "high risk" settings encountered in body modification.

http://www.bmezine.com/news/edit/A60125/artlatex.html

So basically, A&D as well as Vasoline clogs up the tattoo machine, degrades our gloves from protecting us, Damages the very skin we are trying to get to heal smoothly, seal both water (moisture) and oxygen thats is both needed to product new skins cells away from the wound, shown to have no positive medical effect, pulls the pigment out that we spend hours putting in, has a warning label on both products stating not to use in open wounds, contaminates us with pesticides, and causes allergic reactions. oh ya, almost forgot. All forms of hepitits and HIV can live amost INDEFINATLY in a vasoline or petrolium container due to the chemical being a zero oxygen barrier. Oxygen is what kills HIV and HEP more effectivly than any cleaning product you can buy. HIV can only live for seven seconds once exposed to air, and more than 20 years in a zero oxygen enviroment.

Well thats my side. And i am sure you can find supporting evendence saying that it's ok to use these products cause we been doing it for 50 years, longer then most of the diseases and infections that we are trying to fight have been around. An everyone mentions poeple like spaulding, he wrote his instruction well before that. not to mention the upgrade in equipment since then, and the complete chemical change of almost every pigment brand on the face of the planet since then. But i do understand the struggle of doing what our mentors tought use to do, even though they leaned it 20 years before most of us were born.

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