Nippyneedle

Are Rotaries "better" Or "easier"

66 posts in this topic

Ok, for a wee while I have been bestowing the virtues of using Rotaries for Colour work, and the " possible advantages" of them over Coil Machines for performing this task, Please bear in mind, this is my opinion only, and is not meant to be looked on as a competition between Coils (my first love) and Rotaries (New Girlfriend)..So I recently, swapped one of my Rotaryworks for a Junebug Shader, and a Tyler Mason Liner, both 2010, and virtually unused...

Had a small design to do yesterday, which will form only part of a larger tattoo, (thank God) so I knew I would have the opportunity to rectify any "Happy Accidents" ....So I put my Rotaries aside and used the Coils...I used the T Mason and a "loose" 5......Lining is defo where Coils are best, don't get me wrong, Rotaries are catching up,but, Coils, still, just have the WOW factor when it comes to this task, Lining was done in a Flash, (Pardon the Pun) and then I moved onto the Color side of things.. I grabbed the Junebug, and an 8 RS .Ok it is a very small design, so not much scope to try out the various Color tasks, but, I am used to the solid, unrelenting, almost unforgiving "hit" of Rotaries....I was a little disappointed, with my technique with my Color work, using the Junebug, certainly wasn't the Machines fault, this was solely down to "user error". I genuinely feel, Rotaries have made me lazy....

IMHO, Coils are Better for Lining, and Rotaries are Easier to use for Colour work, just because this set-up suits my style, doesn't mean it will suit you...I defo think Rotaries are Easier to work with to achieve great results when it comes to Color work, and Coils are, more "controllable" and therefore Better for Lining.....For now....

Coils seem to have reached the Peak, or Pinnacle of their development, and any and all advancements have either been tried, or are already in Place. Rotaries, however, are in a stage of ongoing developments, and I for one don't know what the future holds....There is a Place for both types of Machines in your Arsenal, and there always will be, some side with Coils only, others stand hand in hand with the Rotary, me, I simply Ride two Horses with the One Arse...Peace,P.

Design....Picture was taken in the Waiting Room...post-9514-0-15186100-1334228173.jpg

Machines used.....post-9514-0-56988100-1334228201_thumb.jpg post-9514-0-58603100-1334228208_thumb.jpg

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rotaries are not a new thing. a new trend, yes. i personally prefer coil machines, i have tried some rotaires and well, i like some of them. but i think i can't do anything with them that i cannot do with a coil machine. technically, i don't think any rotary can offer any advantage. yes, they are good for color. but not better than a good color coil machine.

i personally am sick of the rotary trend!!! laugh.png i thought about building some rotaries just for fun, but decided not to do it after seeing everybody is making rotaries nowadays, i want to stay out of the trend. and the prices of the rotaries???

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Yeah Rotaries have been around as long as Coils, if not longer according to some Peeps......However, today's Coil Machines, and Rotaries,might look similar to machines of Old ,but both have benefited from advancements thro the years..The price of a quality Coil and Rotary are not that much different, £150-£250 approx 200-320bucks, will get you a Quality Machine...However, just the same as Coils, you ain't gonna, IMO, get an all rounder, No one machine, will Line, and Perform all aspects of Color work, I still feel there will be a need for the two different types of Machine, no matter if it is Coil or Rotary based...

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My former "mentor" if you could call him that, had me using a rotary from my second tattoo, to be honest I couldn't stand it. I switched back to a coil machine as soon as I possibly could and found I improved alot faster. While I can see the benefits of using a rotary, I definitely think you need a better understanding of how the ink goes into the skin. I guess it is all personal preference at the end of the day.

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My former "mentor" if you could call him that, had me using a rotary from my second tattoo, to be honest I couldn't stand it. I switched back to a coil machine as soon as I possibly could and found I improved alot faster. While I can see the benefits of using a rotary, I definitely think you need a better understanding of how the ink goes into the skin. I guess it is all personal preference at the end of the day.

I need to ask, what type of Rotary was it, Linear, Direct drive, did it have any inbuilt "Give"...I used a Rotary years back and made a mental note that I would never use them again, however, with the improvements, and continued advancements, they do make a good case for themselves. I agree, it is personal preference. I might have read this part wrong, and your statement may or may not have been directed at me, and was more of a generalisation, however, I do understand, how ink is transferred into the Skin, I am also, led to believe, that when a Needle powered via a Coil Machine is at the end of its Stroke, then it has spent its energy, this is why, the Line is Smoother, and More Refined than with a Rotary,whereby a Rotary powered Needle is constant, and consistent, and can, if not performed correctly lead to a "stitched" line. I broached this subject to start a discussion on both types of Machine, not to get advice on my technique,LOL. As I said, this can be an emotive subject, and people seem to be rooted in one "camp" or the other...Remember, more Pioneers get Shot than Settlers...P.

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when i got tattooed for the first time, 2 decades ago, i was tattooed with a homemade rotary (yes, a prison style "machine"). that's what i thought a tattoo machine was, as i was a kid who had not seen a real tattoo machine before. it was not until 2 years after that i saw a real machine, coil machine, in action. i have a special love for rotaries for that reason. but i must say all this rotary trend is going too far. some people is making very good & nice rotaries, but i hate to see many builders just switching to them because they're easy to sell.

yes, there's no good coil machine for lining, color & shading, either. and, in fact, i like it, i prefer to have a very specific machine for every use.

about my experience with rotaries, i posted it in another topic, i tried some and did not like them so much, the only one i liked was the cheyenne hawk. versatile machine, very comfortable, it's like using a pencil. i'm used to some weight, anyway, still prefer my rotaries to the cheyenne.

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i dont have as much experience as yet with rotaries to have the best of insights.. but deep down i like to beleive that, any coil machine can be tuned to run as required... that it is not about coils or rotaries but about speed, consistency, hit.. stroke etc... that a person that really knows his machine, can set it to run as a cheyenne if he needed to.

however thing that struck me recently at a convention was around 90% of artists doing black n grey realism were using cheyenne, and the ones workin in colour the dragonfly... made me think..

as for my personal infatuations - i have never yet admired any rotary as i spend hrs checkin out coil ones though, especially hand built ones...

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With my findings, I am the direct oposite. I use generic stealth style rotaries all day long for line work. with the exception to looser skin areas. The generic rotaries just don't have the punch with anything higher than a seven mag to me. I end up overworking with an 11 mag plus everytime. I could try a more exspensive rotary, but don't want to take the risk of it not hitting hard enough w/o running 100mph. I do love the rotary for smaller jobs. Much easier to control. Fast healing time as well. I do believe that coils ultimately are more effective cause you can set it up to work off the resistance of the skin easier. Loose to dealing with a force that pulls the needle into the skin rather than makeing punctures.

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Last sentance is jacked. Im saying coils punch, and rotaries pull in without the recoil ya need a lot of times.

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I am currently running this lot of Rotaries,they are middle range Priced Machines, from about £200- £320 so approx 300-450 USD, about the same price as a quality Coil Machine...Cranker/NeoTat/Swash Gen7/Bishop...post-9514-0-09052600-1334260363_thumb.jpg

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Oh yeah, def a reputable range there.So do you find that these models hit hard enough, and slow enough to pack with a 15? Also, the more cheaper ones seem to have loose conections with the drive and bearing. Are these made sturdy enough that they won't loosen up after severeral uses?

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Sorry man! I think I worded that entirely wrong. I meant for me being thrown in the deep end, being forced to use the rotary was too much for me. I really had no understanding of how the ink goes into the skin, how easily you can over work the skin with a rotary etc. My mentor really wasn't much of a good teacher, kinda expected me to just jump in and have a go.

I think for an apprentice rotaries are really difficult, especially when you have no real guidance. I switched right back to the coil without his approval, i just felt alot more comfortable learning with it..

Sorry for the confusion, my words are sloppy when it gets late

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Thanks twoshay, for clearing that up..I can answer flatlines question, by using twoshay's observations...All of the machines pictured will easily push a 15 mag, and beyond...To put it into perspective, the Cranker will easily push a 14RL, at 6.2volts, and both the Bishop will "drive" an 18 RS, somewhere between 9 and 10volts. The hit from a Rotary is constant, the Swash is the only one with some "Give", it is too easy to traumatise the skin, if you are not careful, however, start of on low volts, and increase slowly, until you find a "comfort zone", just the same with a Coil Machine, I wouldn't ramp my Coil Colour Packer to 12 volts, or expect it to pack colour at 2 volts.On reflection, doesn't matter if it is Coil or a Rotary Machine... it possibly all comes down to understanding Machine Mechanics, and knowing what works...Rotary Machines, are the same as Coils, you only get what you pay for, keep away from all the "Bells and Whistles", and infinitely adjustable Give Systems, and you can get a Great Machine for £150/200Bucks...The Rotaryworks Classic (http://forum.ink-trails.com/index.php?/topic/23297-review-on-rotaryworks-machines/)...or for £50/70Bucks more a Bishop or a NeoTat (http://forum.ink-trails.com/index.php?/topic/23599-bishop-and-neotat-review/)...Peace,P.

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Glad to know. I might invest 350 bucks in a neo tat one day. I guess with all the money I have invested in coils and other things, it's hard to justify. Eager to try one day though. I'm always open to donations! ;)

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Glad to know. I might invest 350 bucks in a neo tat one day. I guess with all the money I have invested in coils and other things, it's hard to justify. Eager to try one day though. I'm always open to donations! wink.png

Aren't we all...smile.png ...I have been given Machines, and in turn, I have gave Machines away, it lets other people try builds that they might not necessarily shell out hard earned cash for...Sort of try before you buy...wink.png

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I really would like to get my hands on a neo tat. If you ever want to let it go at a decent rate, be sure to hit me up !

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Will stick yer name on the List...Could be a while, as it is on my top shelf,LOL

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lol, I heard that!

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All i have ever used was the stealth style...they are really slow, dont line for shit and have been unnsuccessful for color....great for b and g tho

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The "Stealth Style" is a copy of a copy, so might be okay for something......biggrin.png

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I have used a few coil machines. I found them problematic at best. The benifiet of a coil machine is also its undoing. The sound is almost nothing, you have one tool to tune your machine, voltage. The only way to see if it's correct is to apply it to skin and adjust as best you can then go. Thats too wreckless for me. Coil Machines can be tuned perfectly before ever touching the client. The coil machine can be so fine tunned that is a part of you, and no other artist can make that machine sing like you can. you can make adjustments from the contact screw depth, angle, material, frontspring tension, angle length, rear spring tension,angle, material, thickness, what your frame is made from, what you coils are made from, how well they are made and what layer of wrapping. You can change , adjust, move any part .05mm in any direction and the machine has a whole other feel and personality. most rotary machine still hit like a chainsaw at very low voltage. I can not pass up the ability to know my machine, and know i can change or fix any part of my machine, how it works to the smallest detail. Coils work for me.

What really seemd difficult to me is when you have a coil machine you change and tune it to do what you like. how your hand moves. If your lining at a certain speed and it's too thick, we retune the machine to work as we want it at that comfortable hand speed. Rotaries move so fast and are so little tuning options that we tend to speed up to "fit" the machine. then we are working out of our normal comfort zone leaving room fo error.

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Thats one way to look at it.. another way to look at it is with a rotary, you have zero inconsistencies in tuning.. you have a machine that will perform the same every time.. voltage is the only variable, and only affects speed.. the hit is always consistent.. to me this seems less "wreckless".. the machine works the same every time, and I just have to be aware of my technique... turn it down a volt to get nice whips.. turn it up a volt to get nice saturation.. seems pretty straight forward to me.. If i need the machine to hit really soft I use a different machine.. even with coils this is the case.. I have my chainsaws.. and my soft as a feather machines.. rotaries are just a tool like any machine.. but IMO for color they work way more efficiently.

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i think your missing something here. like the core concept of what im saying. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion sure. And i respect that. But to me, tattooing is broken down into one truth. there is a right and wrong way. Everyones hands are different, everyone has a different movement, flow ,and pressure their hands provide at a natural pace. However tattooing never changes, human skin (aside from the 7 skin types) never change, and wound healing never changes. Color has to be applied within a set of boundries for it to be considered good work. Line work is the same, as with shading. We all are looking for those magical techniques that the masters use. The only way to get your hands to do exactly the same as a master, or even to be consistent amoung your own work, the machine must be adjustable. Every day your hand changes, somedays you may be more energetic, other days, maybe you didn't sleep well. your hand speeds and preasure will change from day to day. Your machine is a buffer between you and the client. Having a machine that is not adjustable is like taking the shocks off your car. Sure it will run, but would you want to drive it. Not to mention 90% of the tuning is by hearing the machine. You could preach "tune to duty cycle". But for me, that does not work. I have to tune my machine to function the best way possible in my hands. You might just pick up my machine and fall flat on your face do to the tuning, and same with me and your machines.

I'm not asking you to have my opinion. Simply asking you to understand it fully. I get what your say, but for me. I threw my rotary machines in the trash.....literally.

Edited by MaddHatter
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OK all, Please remember this thread was raised for peeps to voice opinions...Madd, I find the need to address some of your points..Quote " The sound is almost nothing, you have one tool to tune your machine, voltage. The only way to see if it's correct is to apply it to skin and adjust as best you can then go. Thats too wreckless for me." Rotary Machines are available with infinite give, and variable stroke, all with the turn of a screw..As in the Hyper V2, which is based on Swashplate Technology.

Quote "Coil Machines can be tuned perfectly before ever touching the client. The coil machine can be so fine tunned that is a part of you, and no other artist can make that machine sing like you can. you can make adjustments from the contact screw depth, angle, material, frontspring tension, angle length, rear spring tension,angle, material, thickness,". I totally agree, however, how many People take Skin type/Ink Viscosity/Placement etc etc into account, and just pick up a Daily Driver and "batter in" and use that Machine because it worked fine last time...

I feel the following experiences were based on you using older type Rotary machines, Quote "most rotary machine still hit like a chainsaw at very low voltage." in addition " Rotaries move so fast and are so little tuning options that we tend to speed up to "fit" the machine. then we are working out of our normal comfort zone leaving room fo error." Therefore some of the points are outdated, and do not accurately reflect the advancements in Rotary Machine Development...I have Rotaries, which hit as soft as I want, or as hard as I need.

Remember without being objective, we won't go anywhere or see anything.

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On you latest thread, I find the following Quote "The only way to get your hands to do exactly the same as a master, or even to be consistent amoung your own work, the machine must be adjustable." and also " Having a machine that is not adjustable is like taking the shocks off your car. Sure it will run, but would you want to drive it. Not to mention 90% of the tuning is by hearing the machine. You could preach "tune to duty cycle". But for me, that does not work. I have to tune my machine to function the best way possible in my hands." From these statements it appears that you are not aware of infinite give systems, and tuning possibilities on the Newest Rotaries, it seems as though you wish to dismiss Rotaries, based on your experiences, of older Direct Drive models, or ones with no give, which indeed volts, handspeed and experience, are your only allies..Peace,P.wink.png

Please see my latest Daily Drivers....post-9514-0-90986000-1335382593_thumb.jpg HM Santamaria-2.5mm Stroke.....Peter Tieg-4mm Stroke.....Hyper V2, adj Stroke.....Cranker 4mm adj Stroke....NeoTat 3.5 mm Stroke....Bazooka 4mm+ Stroke....and my trusty Coil Zeiss-5mm Stroke.. The Santamaria has adjustable Give by tightening down or slackening off the screw on top, the Hyper has infinite give, and can be changed from a Liner to a Colour Machine on the Fly, and has adjustable stroke from approx 3mm-4.5mm, all at the turn of a Screw..All the other Rotaries have no Give, and are all Linear motion...the Bazooka, ounce for ounce, has the most controllable power of any Machine, I have ever come across, and that is it's potential downfall, skin can be traumatised in a fraction of a Second...So it's not all a Bed of Roses...

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