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Machine Tuning. Mainly Short Stroke Vs. Long Stroke.

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#1
Gnar Tattoos

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Since i have had my newest machines i have been using my Eikon Green Monster shader as a liner because that was how the tattoo artist(who i now know was a pill head) i bought it from had it set up and i hardly knew anything about tattooing at the time. as for a shader/colour packer, i use a workhorse, which i love. well i just started working at a shop (kind of an apprinticeship, but since i already know most of what im doing, i just tattoo and learn without pay, please don't ask, i'm just grateful) and was told to switch my machines around. SO, that's what i did, and so far what i had to do was replace the capacitor on my shader to a higher uf, use a thinner front spring, and re-shimmed the front coil, and as for short/long stroke, i have no idea. i don't know much about the stokes. with my shader that i'm turning into a liner, i need to change the springs out for thicker ones, i already re-shimmed it, and i need to figure out how far out to have the armature bar(for a short or long stroke).
I'm pretty sure that for a liner i need to use a short stroke, but my mentor told me that for a shorter stroke i need to have the armature bar further past the coil, and for a longer stroke i need to have it closer to the coil. THIS DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE TO ME!!! i don't understand why a short stroke needs a bigger gap from the a-bar to the saddle(where the back of the spring set sits).

can someone please explain this to me? maybe im completely confusing the point of the stroke. i just know that i have my shader running perfectly, and im pretty sure it's set up right now as a long stroke.

And if you're wondering why i need the answer here, and not from my mentor, it's because he seriously doesn't seem to know what the hell he's talking about. im basically just using the shop for the resorces of an autoclave and clientèle bait.

#2
Himhimself

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i dont know much about machine tuning but from what i have read and heard...im pretty sure thats backwards...

by moving the a-bar farther away from the saddle it allows the a-bar to move up and down more (more stroke)

im not 100% correct but thats what i have always thought

#3
feral bunny

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Perhaps your mentor is testing your knowledge?
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#4
jrf134

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i think he meant ya need your a-bar further from your front coil meaning gap,...air gap man,did he say saddle or rear deck at all,or did ya hear wrong?there are other determining factors as well frame geo,coil placement a-bar placement above yer coils,stuff like that,but i gotta be honest i really don't know why yer screwin with your workhorse,i'd leave it alone if i were you,if it's running right then why,the guys who set those know way more than many and ya should only have to screw with the front contact on it if that.as for your eikon,rip away,but i'd get a cheapo but nicer than a 50 dollar jobbie,to rip apart and test yer machine knowledge and set-up on,screw with that one,get yer knowledge up to par and tweak yer others after you have molested the whorepig.

#5
STEELE

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View Postferal bunny, on May 17 2010, 02:47 AM, said:

Perhaps your mentor is testing your knowledge?

X2

What was your reason for shimming the two machines? just curious.

#6
Gnar Tattoos

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View PostSTEELE, on May 17 2010, 06:49 AM, said:

X2

What was your reason for shimming the two machines? just curious.

Because the front coil was too low causing the armature bar to hit at a downward angle. it wouldnt lay flat.

and as for the other question regarding me misunderstanding him, he was showing it to me in person, so i don't think that's the problem. maybe i just don't know how to word it correctly. i am talking about the distance from the saddle to the armature bar.

#7
STEELE

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well check it out. try it both ways, one way is wrong, but eithier isn't really time consuming. so it'll be a great way to get intimate with the tools of your trade. also you should hit up the intruduction section here and tell us a little bout your self.

#8
feral bunny

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View PostSTEELE, on May 17 2010, 06:44 AM, said:

well check it out. try it both ways, one way is wrong, but eithier isn't really time consuming. so it'll be a great way to get intimate with the tools of your trade.


Great suggestion, Steele. This is a good point. Go ahead and tinker with it. If it doesn't work then put it back to where it was before.
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#9
jrf134

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one thing i did was find great builder's sites,anyone you want,check em out,see how they set up there's study the differences,soon enough you'll see minor details of difference between one compared to the other,soon enough you won't be able to look at a machine without studying it's set-up,figuring it out,what the differences are in air gap,length of a-bar,differences between a-bar spacing,liner shader packer,cut-back geo,long stroke,vs,short,coil size,and eventually you will spot things on every build.it is addictive.good luck.

#10
jrf134

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View PostGnar Tattoos, on May 17 2010, 06:37 AM, said:

Because the front coil was too low causing the armature bar to hit at a downward angle. it wouldnt lay flat.

and as for the other question regarding me misunderstanding him, he was showing it to me in person, so i don't think that's the problem. maybe i just don't know how to word it correctly. i am talking about the distance from the saddle to the armature bar.

oh on this one,eiter think of baseball bats,or hammers.:)

#11
shawn1980

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what needle confiq are you going to be using it for larger needle grouping larger stroke more force. smaller needle confiq shorter stroke less force.SO LET THE FORCE BE WITH YOU LOL

#12
Gnar Tattoos

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View PostInkspressit, on May 19 2010, 02:58 AM, said:

I can explain it,



By having it closer to the coil he was referring to the rear of the a-bar being closer to the coil and opening the distance from the spring deck giving you a slower runner and the ability to open up the stroke.

Do not confuse your inability to understand as a lack of your Mentors knowledge, if in doubt ask him (its called respect)

So basically you just told me that he was wrong. because that was my reason for posting this question in the first place. i was told that a shorter gap made a longer stroke, and that didn't make any sense to me. if i were being disrespectful i would have approached this in a far different way.

#13
mark101

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i got one word to say
FOCUS ;)

#14
Gnar Tattoos

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View PostInkspressit, on May 19 2010, 01:36 PM, said:

Read that up there^^^ nowhere in there did you say short stroke for long gap.... and if you read my reply, you will see i stated a short gap will allow you to close your stroke up if you so wish, I did not say you could not have a long stroke with a short gap.
So bascially NO I DID NOT SAY HE WAS WRONG, I said if he told you what you wrote above, He was RIGHT and you MISUNDERSTOOD him.
You need to FOCUS!

wow, you probably won't believe me when i say it after all of that, but i just re-read my post and i had it backwards. he told me that for a shorter stroke i need a larger gap, and a smaller gap for a longer stroke.

honestly, i have no idea how i messed that up since it was the main point of my post. but seriously, that's what he said, and now im even more confused because what you said is what makes sense. you have to understand, i don't know much about the "stroke".

#15
STEELE

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I love to stroke! :o

#16
Gnar Tattoos

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View PostInkspressit, on May 19 2010, 03:54 PM, said:

The Gap will simply act to govern speed and to a degree hit, depending on configuration, your stroke is determined by how far out you wind your contact in relation to its position on the front spring giving the distance the A-bar has to travel to strike your front coil flush.
I am still not going to say your mentor is worng, as potentially he prefers to work with a quicker strokey machine for shading, and goes with a short gap, thinner rear spring, slightly higher voltage, and greater travel/stroke. And prefers his liners with more punch and therefore goes with a heavier rear spring and wider gap so he gets speed from his springs as opposed to relying on the gap but still has plenty of rear flex to get a good solid hit.

It all boils down to personal preference with machine setting and what works for you, Old school machines had pretty much 1 gap and relied soley on contact placement and springs to govern their uses.

well thank you very much. that actually helps me out quite a bit. i just headed to the shop and placed an order for a new machine and an armature bar kit. hopefully ill be able to understand all of this with my next few tattoos.

#17
done here

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View PostInkspressit, on May 19 2010, 07:54 PM, said:

FOCUS is very important alright!!!!
without focus you end up taking pics like Declue :o

#18
mark101

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focus is the word of the week lol

#19
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focus: noun, verb

(fow-cus pronounced)


# the concentration of attention or energy on something; "the focus of activity shifted to molecular biology"; "he had no direction in his life"
# maximum clarity or distinctness of an image rendered by an optical system; "in focus"; "out of focus"
# concentrate: direct one's attention on something; "Please focus on your studies and not on your hobbies"
# cause to converge on or toward a central point; "Focus the light on this image"
# a central point or locus of an infection in an organism; "the focus of infection"
# concenter: bring into focus or alignment; to converge or cause to converge; of ideas or emotions
# stress: special emphasis attached to something; "the stress was more on accuracy than on speed"
# become focussed or come into focus; "The light focused"
# a point of convergence of light (or other radiation) or a point from which it diverges
# put (an image) into focus; "Please focus the image; we cannot enjoy the movie"
# a fixed reference point on the concave side of a conic section

#20
Old Skool

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View PostMARKT4LYF, on May 20 2010, 01:11 AM, said:

without focus you end up taking pics like Declue ;)

:P Didn't take long to spread did it ;)