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Color Vs. Shader Setup

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#1
janne

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What is the difference between Color and shading machines?

Is it true that shader is faster than color machine? I donīt get it...
Is it what they say at Eikon`s but still. I would think that really soft springs and slow machine would shade better...

What are usually spring size for color machine? (Fs16 Bs16?) And what is difference between gaps? Air, Contact, Bottom...

Between liner and shader thereīs no problems for me to understand but this gives me some trouble.
-Peace

#2
mark101

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1 not strictly
2 eikon isnt the be all and end all of tattoo machine theory
3 depends on a lot of factors

#3
The Sixx

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View Postmark101, on Apr 22 2009, 11:56 AM, said:

1 not strictly
2 eikon isnt the be all and end all of tattoo machine theory
3 depends on a lot of factors

yeah my work horse machine for shading and solid color fill is a spaulding reaper (funny huh?) f I run em roughly the same gap for shading and color fill, i just adjust the voltage so as to get a harder or softer punch.... Play around on piggie and practice skin you'll eventually spend hours if not days but you find that sweet spot for lining, shading and solid fill, as for springs it goes down to preferernce like I said its what works for you... though for large mag configs for doing huge solid pieces like tribal I have a packer with uber soft springs that has a gap for days and sounds like a chainsaw but lays ink perfect.

Edited by The Sixx, 22 April 2009 - 08:35 AM.


#4
Himhimself

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yeah i am actually a little confused about this too...cant a shader also be used for color and solid fills?

#5
PAINT

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depends who you ask.

The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be when you kill them.

#6
Himhimself

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lol and by that u mean??

i am guessing its all personal preference?

#7
The Sixx

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View PostHimhimself, on Apr 22 2009, 09:25 PM, said:

lol and by that u mean??

i am guessing its all personal preference?

generically speaking a liner runs fast with a shorter gap where as a color packer has a big gap and runs slow, (I wont give specific HTZ or CPS just cuz it depends on the user and the machine), and a shader runs somewhere in the middle of your liner and color packer and the gap again somewhere in the middle of a liner and a packer.... but again it depends on your abilities and your machines and technique..... there are times where I am doing say a piece with solid black that goes into a softer wash of that color......I dont switch from a color packer to a shader I just change what I am doing with the machine and ink, I know several artist that use strictly 2 machines a liner and a shader and just make trasistions on the fly. So I agree that it is personal preferance.

Side note on the Eikon machine setups i.e. color machine, shader, and the short throw and long throw liners, I set up 4 machines exactly how they do it and rarely use em so Eikon as great info but its not written law

#8
Himhimself

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i mean a shader...is fine to use with color too isnt it? like if ur shading in color ...cuz ur not really going to do solid fills everytime u use color

#9
eveline

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View PostHimhimself, on Apr 22 2009, 07:59 PM, said:

i mean a shader...is fine to use with color too isnt it? like if ur shading in color ...cuz ur not really going to do solid fills everytime u use color


u know wot i realy think it depends on personal preference, i color with my shader too and have had no problems so far, don't go by the rulls set by one company or one person, seriously through trail and error find wot's best for you. my shader has a cut back spring on it, wot u use in cut back liners just because i like it that way and it does wot i want it to do. i find there isn't one rule for machine set up actualy there is no rules as such, maby some basics, but all that talk about gaps and such don't always apply. when i styarted tattooing i have spend a lot, and i mean a lot of hours trying out different set ups, also breaking all so called rules:) and that way i found wot i like

#10
Jethrow100

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Shader, colour , liner. Overrated.. I use 1 machine for all 3 jobs...

#11
mark101

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View PostJethrow100, on May 16 2010, 05:10 AM, said:

Shader, colour , liner. Overrated.. I use 1 machine for all 3 jobs...

intresting

Edited by mark101, 16 May 2010 - 10:11 AM.


#12
Self-taught-toist

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View PostJethrow100, on May 16 2010, 08:10 AM, said:

Shader, colour , liner. Overrated.. I use 1 machine for all 3 jobs...
Its not only a hassle when you have to change needles back n forth, but also the work is not going to be as good; I saw your recent pic posted in show n tell and thats what i mean by that

#13
done here

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ive seen some really nice work done with using 1 machine for everything, also seen some truly shitty work done by a professional scratcher, it depends i guess on your skill level. However, i dont recommend it.

#14
acordova

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My Shader can be used for color fades and small tattoos. For solid fill weather it be solid black or color I will pull out the packer as some call it. My packer is much softer then my shader and runs longer and slower due to its setup. Now if I crank my packer I can shade with it also, but takes that much longer. If I try to much packing with my shader I will chew it up cause it runs fast and tight ovals for packing will eat that skin. I know good artist who use one machine but I also seen some truma come from him and healing issues when he packs. I heard of a really big artist won't mention names but uses like 6 machines for for a b&g. I know with my shader a 15 mags is great in it but a 7 mag I have to be very fast or can damage the skin pretty fast.

#15
SamSki

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Here is my set up on my Shader and Color packer....and My Shader run faster (Shorter/medium Stroke) than my Color packer (Longer stroke ). :D

My Shader,
Back Spring .016
Front Spring .018
Capacitor 47 uf

Color Packer,
Back Spring .018
Front Spring .016
Capacitor 100 uf


SamSki

Edited by SamSki, 16 May 2010 - 04:59 PM.

Easy to become a Tattoo artist / tattooist but, is not easy to become a GOOD one.

#16
fatcount

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View PostSamSki, on May 16 2010, 04:56 PM, said:

Here is my set up on my Shader and Color packer....and My Shader run faster (Shorter/medium Stroke) than my Color packer (Longer stroke ). :)

My Shader,
Back Spring .016
Front Spring .018
Capacitor 47 uf

Color Packer,
Back Spring .018
Front Spring .016
Capacitor 100 uf


SamSki

just my experiences


my fave liner is 18g rear
20 timing

my favorite shader
which can go from laying color
like butter to washes,and whips,with
no needed adjustments.but it is
best if i widen the gap a hair for
color 18 rear
18 timing

another good shader i have,
but i find works better for
black work,and whipping
is 20 rear
18 timing

and my dedicated solid
packer,which works as
well as the solid packer
mentioned,but cant just
go from packing to shading
with it (atleast i cant)

16 rear
16 timing

but like said before me,its all person dependant,and skill dependant.as ive seen packer with a 20g rear spring.just depends how hard u want things to hit,and how much flex u want in front,and what u find it does for you right? i assume,we all see the finished work in out head first.and whatever setup allows to achieve those looks is the "right" setup FOR you.
take any of the numbers people gave u as just a guideline.

my .02

peace

G

oh and 47uf capacitors on all,as i find if u know how to tune well,the speed difference the cap makes is negligable

Edited by fatcount, 16 May 2010 - 06:04 PM.

website launched and content up.more to come as regularly as possible
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#17
Jethrow100

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View PostSelf-taught-toist, on May 17 2010, 05:00 AM, said:

Its not only a hassle when you have to change needles back n forth, but also the work is not going to be as good; I saw your recent pic posted in show n tell and thats what i mean by that

Oops better explain that better...
I actually have 3 swashdrive machines so I don't have to change needle's and can adjust the speed with the power supply

#18
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study machine theory and talk to a machine builder thats good.

shader-long soft or short fast-the question is what type of shading. soft flowing or undershade?
color-long soft or short fast-the question again is what type?
lining-long soft or short fast-there's that question again...what type? highlights or outlines? crisp edge or loose edge?
configurations play a role.... points play role... the art plays a role...

apprenticeship is key here... you need education young grasshoppa :)

#19
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View PostInkspressit, on May 19 2010, 05:42 AM, said:

AMEN to that,
people get hung up talking gaps, spring gauge on front and rear.... many are oblivious to tension, spring width and length and how a wider 16 can act just like an 18 and a thinner 18 like a 16, far to many variable combinations that you can't just go by gauge of spring or gap setting. I built a machine for a guy once, set how he wanted and he used it for lining, washing, shading and colour work, all in the preference and work style


oh i know. its almost like they really believe that a spring setup is gonna make their minds eye better!? lol cracks me up but its expected from those ones who don't know any better. then you get these guys who offer it up to em like its the gospel of tattooing or something ya know? next the victim takes it all in thinking "k i got this" ... hands out thank you's abundantly and here then you have people on both ends of the nonsense talk just swollen up with egos thinking 'yeah man, i'm the man now'... sad part is, its all misinterpretation on both ends in my opinion. one the guys giving out all the gauging and arm'bar preferences and the g's per sqr." are either unbeknown to the necessity of what is in the art to replicate correctly or they're just plain out mean in the sense that if they do know what i'm talking about, that withholding that info from the reader is just causing someone out there a scar or a crappy tattoo. so then the ethical background of a professional is just not being used. further, the reader/aspiring tattooer or whatever, is basically learning in reverse order and is not learning to look into the art to determine what setup is really needed to do what with? lmfao... so indeed apprenticeship under a top shelf guru is key in my opinion. hell, i started out doing it the wrong way too man... lemme tell ya, it took 5 years apprenticeship to loose those nasty bad habbits and all the while i suffered in a major way thinking that tattoo was all about the process of doing the tattoo alone... pffft... its art so the question first to me ended up being 'how do i learn more about art before i get myself stuck looking stupid when its time to rock it in the skin?" story ends like commercial art school, theory, lines, values... i mean, ya know, its always gonna be the stubborn ones who suffer the most and that was my path.... wasted allot of time and money trying to run a race from the finish line to start line! lol ;)

#20
jrf134

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it's easy to become jaded,especially with the amount of mis information out there that seems like it was only put there to trip folks up.or the ones who didn't know what they were talking about had an overly aggressive viewpoint and others catered to their overly dominant ego.regardless i think the main thing is to realise you can still learn more everyday,and that you may have possible misconceptions in some respects,whats true today may not be true tommorow.and being humble.if ya can't humble yourself,then i think you stop learning and hold onto your knowledge as a throne to purvey others from a false sense of accomplishment or intellect.so keep learning til you are in the grave.