I remember back when this site first started, it was to help those interested in tattooing find the info needed to get started properly and learn the importance of CC and BBP.

If I remember correctly, Jason was a rookie back then and was sharing the info and lessons that he had learned from Mark to others in the same shoes that couldn't find a pro to mentor or shop to apprentice in. The whole idea of this site was to SHARE info and not fall into the category of a bunch of elitist who wouldn't help out the so called "scratchers" working from home.

Then, they came up with the idea of asking for donations to help cover the cost of hosting and the professional forum script. Well, most everyone went along with the idea and pitched in to help out with the cost, which is fine. But now they want to charge for the information that was freely posted to this site.

You've got to be kidding. With the exception of a few articles that Mark and a couple others have donated most of the info here is just repeats of information or ideas that rookies have read somewhere else on the site.

Just because this site has a large number of members and thousands of post doesn't make it a wealth of information worth paying for. Yes, a twenty dollar donation to help out with cost is fine, but don't charge to access information that was originally donated for free to begin with.

And what about the information that others posted to this site as a gesture to help out, are you going to hide that from the non-paying crowd which it was originally intended for. I know at least a few pros who visited this site and gave advice freely.

I really liked this site when it was in its infancy, but then things kinda went south and I didn't hang out and post much since. The show and tell section is a perfect example, there are rookies giving out critiques about others work when they don't have any business tattooing anything other than a pigs ear.

Is this site a benefit to others? .... yes I think it is, but not as a "pay for membership" to access information that is freely available on other sites.

No, its not that I am cheap and don't want to pay.... I'll make a donation at any time to help keep the site going, but I'm not going to pay for information that was originally free.

Crotalus,

Wasn't aware you were in a shop. We give free memberships to anyone who is a working artist. I completely understand your point which is why i asked for input. I am trying to figure out a sensible balance between making everything free and thus having no incentive other than kindness to help support it, and making it an exclusive club.

Just as an example, last night's fiasco cost me $40 to have someone to do a custom PHP install, IonCube thing. I didn't do anthing to the site, the host just updated the PHP which caused the site to not work properly. Hosting is now $30/mo and I am considering a move to a site that is $49/month to get true VPS. Anyway, as the site grows and requires more resources new members are expected to contribute for the benefit of being apart of this great community.

Hey crotalus, i'm not referring to you man,i understand your point of vieuw, i'm also the first to defend everyones right to speak out about what they think/feel...I was referring to people who are bitching about the fee and expect that everything is just ''handed over''I am from the days there was next to nothing to find about tattooing, and living in a very small country,th tattooists never want to share anything,hey, usually you coulden't even look when they tattood you!Worked myself up to the point i work for myself,and have NO troubles at all helping out where i can,but i don't feel that someone can EXPECT me to do so.I feel the private part is a normal way of motivating people to actually put in SOME effort to obtain information,and this for a very small fee...there's still plenty of info on the rest of the site to accomodate those who can't or wont pay.if i offended you somehow,i apoligise openly.(sorry 4 the bad english...hehe..)

U might want to do something like BME does and get peeps to contribute some thing to the site like a tattoo story,pics,how to vids or if they dont then it's a small fee to look.....Some of the people who contribute on a regular basis should not have to pay...Like stated B4 they gave the info free of charge and now u want to basicly sell it to pay for the newbys to the site...Know what i mean?

I dont believe there is anything in the members only section that hasnt been written by full members. I agree that it seems weird to take a Jr Members tutorial and not even let them have access to it. But as far as Ive seen, everything in the members only section is by full members.

As far as paying $2 a month.... Id just skip coffee for a couple days, or even a meal if thats what it took.

After reading all of the above I can see all sides to this topic. But at the end of the day, if we all want this site to continue to improve and stay user friendly then a fee appears to be an essential factor in order to continue in this direction. I was happy to pay $20.00 for membership and if necesary I will be happy to pay and additional yearly fee if it is required to keep this site heading the right direction. Regards Sportster

Hi there, as a newbie member Id like to chuck my hat in the ring so to speak.

I have come accross this site a few times when I've googled something for one reason or another, and tried to find the answer to the original question that I'd asked. Sometimes there is a lot of sniping to get through until the answer is found, other times its been right there, answered concisivly by one or more of the very generous members on here, who I've come to recognise and very much respect. (I guess everyone has their own favourites ;o))

After reading through this post I would like to say that if, I had come accross this site after googling a specific q, as i had previously, and found the "sorry you are trying to enter a members only section...../ please pay before you can read this post etc" sign then I would have been put off from entering the site and reading what has become to me, some very invaluable information.
As a complete novice, who only got into tattoos because her drunken husband ordered a "kit" from that well known auction site (lol) so that he could carry on inking up the rest of his body, then after one very shaky line was told NOT to put that needle anywhere near him ever again!!!. I Dont jump into things lightly, I researched and read, and took a lot of advice. I showed up at a few "parlours" only to be confronted by a lot of very young looking men, who at first smirk at a female entering their *lair*, and then roll off prices if they can be bothered to look up from their latest issue of "the beano". I couldnt even bring myself to ask some if they knew what an autoclave was, let alone if they knew what it was for.
With cheap kits being soooooo easy and cheap to buy now (from aforesaid tinternet site) it scares me that so many youngsters are able to pick up a machine and badly scar anyone who is excited enough ( and yes I say excited because of the mention of a freebie tattoo gets an average teen more than excited), and in my experience I have had to point out to a few "almost victims" of a teen with a ebay kit the troubles that could happen if they went ahead and got a tatt from him..... unfortunately, i missed a few and now they have been branded,, anyways i digress...
I think its fair that the site is paid for, afterall, it costs more than 20 dollars for a couple of packets of cigarettes over here, and reading this site helps you give up smoking because you need both fingers on keys!!

But ....

is there a way at all that you could allow some "tasters" to the site,, the notice that comes up when you click if youre not a member will put a lot of people off joining because they will be unaware of the wealth of info that can be gleaned from this site, and in my experience, probably save a persons life when they discover that theres more than bad bruises can be passed on by using
the wrong equipment in the wrong way?
Maybe a section, as crotalus says, contains some basic info thats been posted by goodwilling people for free that would entice only the people that are serious enough? but on the same hand stress of the dangers that using a machine can do not only to your "victim" but to yourself?

Mainly because this is such a brilliant site, with good sound advice and free rolling members that appear daily to pass on that advice to newbies who have questions to ask is what makes this site so popular an usually one of the first to be mentioned on google whenever ive typed something in...... If the newbies stop looking and posting, will the rest of the *members only* site get lost in the depths of google due to lack of use?? I know I couldnt access some of the parts of the site that I used to have a glance at.... (thats not what made me join by the way, )

Anyhow,, sorry to sound like Im having a rant, Im not... Ive learned that certain things like a lot knowledge and a bit of patience and the need to try and make others using a machine step up to the mark so that other tattooists DO NOT get a bad reputation for scars, infections and really bad tattoos is the first responsibility that ANYONE intending to place ink into another human beings body should have, and the need to do that should be first and foremost in any individuals mind, whether that information is being passed on to a complete newbie or someone who has been *inking* for 90 odd years, things change very quickly in this world and unless youre ready and willing to keep up, then you may aswell give up, and if you want to charge for the knowledge that your information could save someones life, but they cant access that due to a small surcharge, i can see that that would make you angry.

A happy medium bewteen the two would be nice, so that people can feel like thier making a difference to complete rookies, and saving lives, at no charge,, but then a good strong forum with sensible unrepeated answers to bonafide problems from individuals who are geniunely interested in progressing but have no other way or means to at the moment......


Sorry,, first post,,,, needs the shaky outlines re-doin,, maybe once the inks settled itll look a bit more sorted????
<<<<scurries off back to drawing board mutterring madly

hmmm.
Food for thought.

Is it a idea to make a trial for new members ?? let say 1 month free after that you need to register or something..

These3 are some of the points I've raised on another thread & pretty valid points I feel.

However maybe people can suggest items that can go into a members only section of the forum. As an incentive.

Personally I think that tutorials should definitely go in there. Whether offered FOC by members or not.

I would also like to see maybe a revamp of the art class section where the contest section stays in the same area, but members could put up pieces that they've done & some of the "more seasoned" (Pc way of saying better!!) artists could give them tips on what they could try to improve the piece.

Only full members should be able to make new posts in the flea market section, but for their sakes everyone should still be able to view them. Otherwise you are restricting their customer base.

So lets hear what you got. Give Jason some ideas.

ok now that was fucking funny.. and sooo true *lol*

Apologies for the bloody lengthy post and numerous spellin mistakes,,lol

NIce idea to give a free months trial though I think...

Butterflies on asses........hmmm maybe ill sit n think about that one!

if someone interested in learning to tattoo,and seeking for ''info'' is put off because he/she has to pay 20 bucks, they won't get very far by no means....Only those really ''willing'' to put effort,time and money(can eventually)succeed. That's just what i ment saying many are spoiled and want it all,and right now!!

TRAMPSINK

Welcome to the forum

Luv your suggestion

Guy's I think we should seriously consider the input from Trampsink and if possible a 1 month trial also (if the server / software allows)

If it is not possible to provide a 1 month free trail due to software, etc then maybe the idea of having provision for sound advice along the lines of bloodborne pathogens, etc and also graphic photo's of invection caused by bad health practices, etc and shitty tattoo's done by scratches, etc, etc

what do you all think? yes I am not a mod but thought I would through it out there.

With the free trials, how hard would it be to get them multiple times? All it would take is a new E-mail adress. Trust me there would be people who would keep changing adresses, just to save a few bucks.

Thanks for the shout sportster, I was beginning to think I was stepping on toes for a while

As far as changing addresses goes, people will do that no matter what. I think this site is fantastic, and if it takes someone to keep changing addresses a few times to realise that its worth paying a few bucks for, isnt that their call? Theyd soon get bored of doing that I guess. I have a feeling that there would only be a small minortity that would even consider that, but it might sort the wheat from the chaff so to speak.

After a few visits and a look at the visuals that sportster suggested maybe it would be enough for them to hang up their holsters and leave it to the "pros" anyway? Sometimes the "I want it right now" generation just need a slight nudge in the right direction to get them to think about things properly. Repeated email changing offenders would be easily spotted due to similar text/wordings etc, or would they?

Im no web designer, and I dont know much about what can and cant be stopped when visiting sites, but I dont want to see this site become lost in the airspace either due to slow new memberships.

Im in fear of beginning to sound like im standing on a pulpit now Sorry guys n gals...........

<<<<returns to lighter side of things

anyone fer a coffee??

I appreciate all the input. My struggle is whether or not to make certain stuff only visible to supporting members. I could very well make the Shop Talk section visible to guests/jr.members and restrict their ability to post. That way information is still accessible. My concern with that is that by limiting their ability to ask questions, yet providing unsubstantiated information from members could be viewed as being irresponsible as they might take bad advice to heart and hurt themselves or someone else. So hopefully you guys can see what I am struggling with:

1) How to incentivize people to support the site? Should it go back to the loose rules, and rely on people's generosity? There are some amazing people who have helped to bring the site this far.

2) Is it good to share information with someone who can't afford $20 for access to great people, yet they want to engage in an art that involves exposure to blood/BBP and the risk of infections, scarring, and possibly worse? I mean, isn't requiring an investment a way of weeding out the real scratchers and hacks that don't respect the seriousness of this art? We know the attitude that other forums have to this crowd, how can we deal with it in a way that doesn't just brush them away but promotes a responsible attitude towards learning in the safest manor possible?

IMO gotta be no. 2... look...i sympathise with the original post of this thread and it's utopian ideal, but fuck!! This can kill people and or ruin lives, so if you can't afford a 20, how the fuck are you going to afford all the equipment / training you need to prevent infection etc??? Non members should have access sterilisation threads for sure, but if they're serious they should cough up for the rest... sheesh $20!!! Pretty cheap token effort of seriousness really... about 3000 no 8 rubber bands worth

I support the comment, so if you can't afford a 20, how the fuck are you going to afford all the equipment / training you need to prevent infection etc???

well put!!

if some one wants a taste of the site for free...there is plenty in the free section
i agree with most points posted thus far...its like anything else in life people
you have to pay for quality knowledge...nothing in life is free...
and for someone interested enough in tattooing...20 bux is pocket change...
i understand the original posters views also...there has been alot of information posted
FOC by older members that have been here a long time...then to return to find them locked away...
there is no right or wrong here people...the site costs money to run...
we have pros offering free information...but someone has to pay for that free information
because it costs to post it in one way or another...ive always said if i can get it free
im not gonna pay...but if its something i want bad enough and cant get it free...
im gonna pay for it...those who have become friends here have helped me from the beginning of
me finding this site...back when it was completely free...when i heard the site was in trouble and jason was
offering memberships i joined on the spot....2 bux a month...?ya spend more than that on morning coffee
heres an idea...buy a freaking coffee pot and make a cup before ya head out the door...
in 30 days you will have saved more than 20 bux and probably paid for the coffee pot
filters and a big can of coffee...if you want it bad enough then work it out...
if ya dont want the information here...paid or free...then you are in the wrong business

just my opinion

if it takes charging for membership to keep this site going then so be it...
find another site that offers this much info openly and without making you feel like an idiot
that is totally free... this is 20 bux for a lifetime of learning
then let me know where to sign up...


chuck

and just a minor follow up to my previous post...
if you plan to make a living doing this...
you have to spend money to make money...!!!
the people here will tell you do's and donts
what to buy what not to buy...
should the wealth of knowledge be charged for...
IMO yes...the artists here sharing paid their dues
and if ya wanna be as good as them some day...
PAY YOURS...

chuck